Curse

kostolomac · Jan 13, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

A bit offtopic , I think Cryway is better than tank'n'spank because any caster proffesion can be a cryer.
On topic: no nerf will force players to use balanced builds , education will.

Athrun Feya · Jan 13, 2009, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If something is dependant, it's not going to run without. Cryway won't be Cryway without Cry of Pain.

What's in a name? The idea of Cryway is an armour ignoring AoE spike - I've said this twice already - you could replace with one of the aforementioned skills and still run a reasonably effective AoE armour ignoring spike. Sure, it wouldn't be called cryway exactly but its doing exactly the same thing. If you want to be pedantic about build names then you should also comment on the fact it shouldn't be a -way at all due to the lack of I Will Avenge You.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

a gimmick build will rely on minimum areas of mechanics and skills, whereas a balanced build will rely on a multiple amount of skills and mechanics.

I would argue that tank and spank does rely on several aspects of game mechanic, especially where the tanking is concerned. What has half range spells, bow lengths, touch spells, enemy AI, not enchanting pulling tanks, dealing with groups of foes which have several different max aggro ranges etc etc.

Also Tyla, if you wish to quote me to say things like this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, and now who's the one who is incapable of reading? Spare me your taunts, I wish for this discussion to actually be civilised.

Then try at least to make the quote relevent to what you're accusing me of.

Tyla · Jan 13, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

What's in a name? The idea of Cryway is an armour ignoring AoE spike - I've said this twice already - you could replace with one of the aforementioned skills and still run a reasonably effective AoE armour ignoring spike. Sure, it wouldn't be called cryway exactly but its doing exactly the same thing. If you want to be pedantic about build names then you should also comment on the fact it shouldn't be a -way at all due to the lack of I Will Avenge You.

A name is what's given to something. A definition, something for it to be known by. If you get a cover song, you're going to call it the same thing because it pretty much is - the only difference is how the other band played the song. Change the lyrics and the tune, you've got an all different song. And changing CoP (Hence, Cryway) will remove that tag.

Also, changing CoP also changes what's going to be in your build. You use FoC? Attribute points, runes, loss of an elite skill, extra recharge and energy and the need for a hex on every target comes into play. With Cry of Pain you've not got much to worry about. No spiking skill is as versatile as Cry of Pain and contains as much strength aswell.

Quote:

I would argue that tank and spank does rely on several aspects of game mechanic, especially where the tanking is concerned. What has half range spells, bow lengths, touch spells, enemy AI, not enchanting pulling tanks, dealing with groups of foes which have several different max aggro ranges etc etc.

You raise a good point, but what exclusive aspects does it rely on? Wherever you go, you're going to see all of the above in PvE - so I guess there's no such thing as a gimmick in that case considering you're going to see a lot of game mechanics everywhere.

Quote:

Also Tyla, if you wish to quote me to say things like this

Then try at least to make the quote relevent to what you're accusing me of.

Actually, I just couldn't be bothered shortening it down. I felt you knew what area I was talking about.

Wubbies · Jan 13, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

tank= a person that runs in takes aggro of foes so they are nice and clumped so casters can kill the mob. it doesnt matter if that tank is an ele terra, sf sin or ob tank.

tank and spank= u need a tank
cryway= U STILL NEED A TANK

i find it funny that some people say tank and spank is bad..when in a cryway group u still use a tank ( this is the part where you go " duh" like homer simpson )you still need a tank to gather foes so u can cast cop. unless you are godlike group where u have 8 people with solo cop builds that run around to different places to cop everything.

you cant really say 1 is better than the other cause i have done both (not that my skill matters ) and it depends on the skill level of the casters and the tank. sure u can have all cop skills but the person mashing buttons can suck at mashing or run into the tanks aggro..or the tanks mommy calls him for super..no tank no group..etc. if done correctly cop should kill mobs faster..however im sure that there are possible builds that could destroy a cop damage output as well. so imo it depends on the caster and tank using good coperation.

i just find it funny that people that call cryway group leet and tank and spank groups bad are unintelligent.

just a side note if u wanna be creative with cop just run all warriors with high energy staffs and use COP. yes even tanks can use cop..works well and tanks can take way more damage than a caster. 8 warriors with staffs using COP.. screw the tank and spank im going to call it Tank And Donkey Punch

i said it first in fact im gonna copyright it. build to come next week after i perfect it ..lmfao.

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Jan 13, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Nerf CoP and "Cryway" dies. A week later, the next best build is spread. Maybe it contains FoC necros, E-surge mesmers, and RoJ smiters. Whatever the damage source, the style of playing will continue with matched, but slightly harder to use damage. Elite teams still get rediculously fast times. Pugs still use similar builds but much slower. PvE is still unbalanced. Nothing is fixed.

Tyla, how do you type so much without actually saying anything?

newbie_of_doom · Jan 14, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

I lol'd at the title...

Avarre · Jan 14, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Read through the OP and several pages and all I am seeing is "QQ - I want my holy trinity back."

You are incorrect.

R.Shayne · Jan 14, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Holy trinity is Tank 'N' Spank. Tank 'N' Spank is bad, and should be nerfed solely because of the fact that it's immensely easy to do - tank grab aggro, monks mash heals, eles mash aoe, hey luk i can do eet wit no braine!

Nerf because you find it easy? This actually made me laugh. Try to remember that you are not the only person playing the game and if ANET balances a game for Hardcore players only = DEAD GAME. Not all people are created equal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The only casual player who would grind to r10 before actually being able to play the game (the game for a skill which goes against 3 principals of the game), would be a casual player who isn't casual.

How long do you think it takes to get rank 9/10 in Norn? Those 3 principles were pretty much tossed out with Nightfall. Taken out in the field and shot with EotN. Kind of miss those days but ANET decided to favor the majority of their customers, instead of the minority that post on threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

One is basically impossible because of major imbalances which allow gimmicks to dominate, the other goes against one of the things mentioned in this suggestion. Try again.

They are guilds out there that do things old school, they often need an extra to fill out a team. Just shop around and build up a relationship with these type of people.

Why would anyone care if it is against said suggestion? Some of my favorites UW/FoW runs involved 6 heroes and I, it is just FUN.

Simath · Jan 14, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

This thread is full of a despairing amount of stupidity. PvE will simply never be balanced. Yes, things can be make better and Anet could attempt to alleviate the problem, but they don't. Instead over a period of years they only added to the ongoing problem (i.e. PvE Only Skills).

There are three types of players in the game: those who can be viewed as the "experienced" and "veteran" players who run the closest thing to balanced one can find these days, those who like to use the easy way out and run whatever the current gimmick is, and those who just don't give a damn. The problem Anet faces is that it is impossible to cater to 100% of the aforementioned groups. If they remove the ability to run a gimmick build then players are going to be pissed because godmode is no longer viable. If gimmicks aren't removed, rather they are left alone and begin to grow in popularity, it is only natural the "experienced" players will be aggravated. There is no in between. One way or another it is likely that some of its player base will be loss. lol Ursan

kostolomac · Jan 14, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

PvE will simply never be balanced.

I see two balances in pve , the monster vs player balance which can never be even because of the AI (this doesn't justify the idiotic enviroment effects and monster skills ANET introduced), and internal balance among the professions which is pretty even in NM , but the balance between the professions is ruined in HM and elite areas. Anet could at least try to make all professions more viable in a balanced setup (by this I mean no pve skills whatsoever). I guess pve skills tried to make all professions even but it didn't go quite as planned.

And yes , ANET can't please everybody.

Tyla · Jan 14, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Nerf because you find it easy? This actually made me laugh. Try to remember that you are not the only person playing the game and if ANET balances a game for Hardcore players only = DEAD GAME. Not all people are created equal.

What.

You have to be hardcore... for the game to be easy? No, you don't. You should see the bars that people managed to complete PvE with, the tactics used, everything. Normal mode is pretty much fine on its own, and hard mode is supposed to be for these "hardcore" players you speak of - it's a higher difficulty level. If you suck at hard mode get better or get the hell out, you don't see other games hurting the game difficulty simply because people moan that they can't complete a mode built for higher level players.

Quote:

How long do you think it takes to get rank 9/10 in Norn? Those 3 principles were pretty much tossed out with Nightfall. Taken out in the field and shot with EotN. Kind of miss those days but ANET decided to favor the majority of their customers, instead of the minority that post on threads.

Funny, because the only area people were so uptight about your LB and SS was DoA. There were no skills, other than the Jujundu (which was only a small area of the game) which gave you a ready-made skill bar. Up until GW:EN, where you got 5 more heavy grind titles which as opposed to the Nightfall ones, were puny in comparison.

Also, when something's wrong you don't make the problem worse, you fix the problem.

Quote:

They are guilds out there that do things old school, they often need an extra to fill out a team. Just shop around and build up a relationship with these type of people.

I am completely aware of this, but I don't play anymore. I still argue for the game because I still believe it has a bit of potential left in it as long as the developers don't keep f*cking up.

Quote:

Why would anyone care if it is against said suggestion? Some of my favorites UW/FoW runs involved 6 heroes and I, it is just FUN.

"Fun" is a subjective term. Elite areas shouldn't allows hero passage, except for maybe one. Speed clears and solo farming are also dumb. Get rid of these, you should be finding players there. That is unless they're the type that think phat lewtz in an online game where money has minimal baring and overcompensate themselves with it.

EinherjarMx · Jan 14, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

i liked most of this changes just for the lulz

the only one that made me think WTF was the soul reaping change, you screwed it beyond the strenght attribute

Athrun Feya · Jan 14, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

"Fun" is a subjective term. Elite areas shouldn't blah blah, contradiction, blah blah...

Fun is a subjective term indeed, but that is rich statement coming from someone who enjoys dictating how everyone else should play the game and enjoy it.

EDIT: Disagreeing with aspects of the game within reason is not what I'm refering to. I refer to the taunting of players who choose to run the builds you personally deem as not kosher, who you instantly label inexperiened or bad at the game. This has nothing to do with other games or "customization".

Back to the topic, however, I have some suggestions for Cry of Pain that I posted elsewhere;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

One thing I'm not comfortable with is every caster and their dog using CoP - namely abusing the energy pools of necros and eles to feed echo chains. I think linking this skill to fast casting is a good way to reinforce this skills original fuction (making mesmers more viable in pve teams) and puts it more in line with other armour ignoring AoE damage and other pve only skills (like TNTF).

Tyla · Jan 14, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinherjarMx

i liked most of this changes just for the lulz

the only one that made me think WTF was the soul reaping change, you screwed it beyond the strenght attribute

The Strength attribute isn't really all that bad at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Fun is a subjective term indeed, but that is rich statement coming from someone who enjoys dictating how everyone else should play the game and enjoy it.

Wait, what?

Just because I disagree with certain characteristics of the game and have arguments as to why or why not they should stay doesn't mean I'm telling people how to play their game. There's one way to replicate how to play it, but there are more games in the world that inhabit Tank'N'Spank play - WoW for example. Guild Wars isn't the only game out there.

If we had full customization on every single characteristic of said game, would that be alright too?

A11Eur0 · Jan 15, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

ZOMG HARD MODE IS FOR PROS GTFO WITH UR CRYWAY.

That's all I read. Learn to play or get out of your Hard Mode.

How other people play DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR PLAYING. Period, end of story, have a nice day.

kostolomac · Jan 15, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Just because I disagree with certain characteristics of the game and have arguments as to why or why not they should stay doesn't mean I'm telling people how to play their game. There's one way to replicate how to play it, but there are more games in the world that inhabit Tank'N'Spank play - WoW for example. Guild Wars isn't the only game out there.

One of Guild Wars' charms is that there are multiple ways of dealing with a problem and tank'n'spank is one of them. It would be a shame if physical-way would become the only solution to the toughest problems.

credit · Jan 15, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

anet should balance pve around killing luxons

Sin City Gamer · Jan 15, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by credit

anet should balance pve around killing luxons

totally.

that is all.

the_jos · Jan 15, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Any mention of SF, Cry of Pain, SY and similar and the same argument occurs.

Cryway emerged about 9 months ago and people used it happily for at least 6 months in Deep and DoA without being belittled. So why did it become like this? There's two issues here - GWGuru's view of cryway and the introduction of perma-SF

For 6 months there was no word of cryway on GWGuru; The Deep build appeared on PvXwiki and was congratulated for its innovation in a game that was more ursan/physical based.

I've seen the rise of Cryway when Uber and his guild were perfecting their Deep runs.
You won't hear me complain about anything those guys (and others on their level of play) did and do, they have showed a lot of dedication and innovation. And knowing their playing-skill a tweak to CoP would not put them out of business.
One of the things they did was showing that a skilled team could beat Ursan, which was THE type of play back then.

But, let's be honest.
Deep in about 20 mins. That's overpowered, even when playing with a very experienced team.
We knew it back then, now Guru knows it and starts complaining about it.
Or .... since the introduction there have been arguments about the PvE skills.

Nowadays, as long as your tank doesn't fail, a team can finish everything.
I don't mind that. It was like that in SF with the gear-farm and later in DoA with Kaiz' build. Being able to join such a group with almost any profession isn't bad. So yay for unlinked CoP

What is bad in my opinion is the speed in which such a team can do things.
The old builds had a huge disadvantage, they lacked speed.

Let's revert time to the UW speed contest DVDF organised a while ago. No PvE skills allowed. Except one specific guild the time was roughly an hour. In Normal Mode. That's skilled players who somewhat know their way around in the area. And most probably played together before (since the contest was aimed at guilds).
If a SC takes 20 mins in HM, and 20 mins to form a team and has a chance of 50% fail it would on average be about as fast as a balanced team.
Not bad, since you get more gold drops, more cash and double loot at the end!

I think something is wrong with certain skills. Some have had problems for ages and are almost impossible to fix without huge impact (like PS). Others were introduced to ease nerfs or give players better skill options (PvE skills).
And some became overpowered by 'recent' skill changes.
And it's hard for A-net to balance them, because there will always be players who find a way to abuse them.
But that does not mean we shouldn't have a discussion on why certain skills might be / are overpowered and how to tweek them.

Athrun Feya · Jan 15, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Deep in about 20 mins. That's overpowered, even when playing with a very experienced team.
We knew it back then, now Guru knows it and starts complaining about it.

Why shouldn't the deep be able to be completed in 20minutes? Who sticks labels on elite areas and says "because i used a xxxxx build concept and got this time, any more than this is broken". Yes it did used to take longer, in NM, but people have been running the elite mission daily since then and as a consequence tactics have significantly improved and made way for the faster times. Had we known then what we know now, runs could have been just as fast a year or two ago (similar arguments can be used for DoA and Urgoz).

Consider how the deep build evolved. Go back to the time when steel wall had been established - there was NM and renewal nukers. With the introduction of NF these nukers quickly became Searing Flames, and shortly after people were attempting HM with just the same build as NM, eventually getting down to ~25minute with SF in HM. Not to mention everything moves faster in HM, so the dps of skills like SS rapidly increases and pulling time decreases.

If cryway were to be nerfed into oblivion, we would not go back to SF eles but look for another armour-ignoring alturnative. At the time, the effectiveness of an armour-ignoring spike was just unknown to the deep and therefore quicker times were not being achieved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Let's revert time to the UW speed contest DVDF organised a while ago. No PvE skills allowed. Except one specific guild the time was roughly an hour. In Normal Mode.

It's true that UW times have fallen significantly but UW is a slight exception - for 8 solo farmers to complete an area seems genuinly broken (although I have nothing against solo farming in general). The "one specific guild" you mention there comprises of many of the people still making records today - which leads back to my argument that although people can be very successful with cryway, this generally is not the case. A lot of the decreases in run times are due to Shadow Forms maintainability - that's the real enemy here.